Zenbitz:IRC chatlog on crouching

zenbitzWorking: this comes up once a week, the crouching thing zenbitzWorking: this is how I see it (without reading too much detail above) zenbitzWorking: first off - we are only talking about effects on missile combat. zenbitzWorking: melee combat - it's just not relevent and in fact, I would not want to be in a deep crouch when some dude was swinging a sword at me Gaspard: the 'only' is questionable in my humble opinion Gaspard: but continue zenbitzWorking: well, we'll come back to it. zenbitzWorking: if I am engaged in a firefight (inc. crossbows, snowballs, whatever) zenbitzWorking: I am either: zenbitzWorking: moving to a point. 1:20 PM zenbitzWorking: trying to shoot back zenbitzWorking: trying to avoid getting shot zenbitzWorking: doing something else, but passivily avoiding getting shot if I can zenbitzWorking: anything else? vtchill: crouching behind an object to avoid combat? zenbitzWorking: I guess standing there like a dummy and getting shot zenbitzWorking: vtchill: ah but you will still be doing one of the above in addition. Gaspard: everything else would go under 'doing something else, but passively...' zenbitzWorking: if you are just "cowering" that's "actively avoiding being shot" zenbitzWorking: ok, so lets start with moving to a point. zenbitzWorking: presumably, that point is "escaping" or "cover" or something better that being shot at in the open. zenbitzWorking: I can either sprint zenbitzWorking: walk zenbitzWorking: crawl zenbitzWorking: job zenbitzWorking: jog (sorry) zenbitzWorking: we''ll include silly movie "rolls" as "fast crawing" here zenbitzWorking: if I am sprinting (def: running full out) I cannot be "crouching" zenbitzWorking: if I am crawing or rolling (by definition) I cannot be crouching Gaspard: you could hobble quickly while crouching (stupid) Gaspard: so to movement that would not add at all zenbitzWorking: if I am walking or jogging (def: running slower than sprint ) zenbitzWorking: I WILL ALWAYS BE CROUCHING IF I CAN zenbitzWorking: so there is no reason to toggle it. zenbitzWorking: Why would you walk without crouching if you were getting shot at? barra_library: you would be slower while crouching 1:25 PM zenbitzWorking: I think in my original "thoughts" I had "dodge-run" as an action. zenbitzWorking: Well, there is a continuum of speeds between walking and sprinting sure zenbitzWorking: but why add the complexity. If you want to get there ASAP heedless of bullets, sprint. zenbitzWorking: If you want to go slower, but have some dodgy defense, "crouch-run" zenbitzWorking: "Walking" is only going to apply under certain circumstances zenbitzWorking: - usually you are trying to do something else (chew gum) or on treacherous terrain. The PLAYER loses nothing by "dodge-running" (as long as this max dodge-run speed is higher than walking) zenbitzWorking: summary of part 1: there is no need to have a "crouch" action while MOVING in combat zenbitzWorking: ready for part 2? Gaspard: i guess Gaspard: yes Gaspard: trying to shoot back ? zenbitzWorking: part 2: You are also trying to aim/shoot back zenbitzWorking: zenbitzWorking: either you are shooting while moving, or you are shooting while standing still barra_library: could you do me a favour and tell me what you see when you try to access this URL? zenbitzWorking: if you are shooting while standing still - you are going to either just stand there in the open (maybe you think the enemy is blind) barra_library: http://assets.parpg.net zenbitzWorking: or you are going to take as much cover as you can while aiming/shooting. 1:30 PM Gaspard: barra_library oops you are here by mistake zenbitzWorking: "take cover" - where cover is a real object that blocks bullets, etc. barra_library: thanks Gaspard zenbitzWorking: should probably be a separate action. barra_library: DNS seems to be updated now but I guess tie would need to update the URL zenbitzWorking: if there is no "true" cover - you probably want to present the lowest possible profile to guys shooting at you - such that your own attack is not effected. zenbitzWorking: this is either: drop to ground or drop to 1 knee (simplistically) zenbitzWorking: drop to ground is probably not a good "auto" action - because presumably it takes an action to get back up. zenbitzWorking: Drop to 1 knee--this is about as close to a "crouch" action I think is worthy, but I am not sure it's even worth coding in. zenbitzWorking: either it's like a "half action" to start moving again (unlike getting back to your feed from ground) or it's "free" and there is no point of specifiying it. zenbitzWorking: I could go either way... if we keep it, that would leave us with 3 firing stances (without cover) zenbitzWorking: 1) Prone zenbitzWorking: 2) Half-prone (1 knee) zenbitzWorking: 3) Set standing 1:35 PM barra_library: so that's the conclusion? barra_library: * that's >> what's zenbitzWorking: as 1->3 your defense decreases, but your ability to move again increases zenbitzWorking: on next action. zenbitzWorking: Well, we could drop 2) I am not sure what it really adds Nihathrael is now called niha_off zenbitzWorking: to the game zenbitzWorking: no - shooting while running - has all the same reason to have "no crouch" as just moving does zenbitzWorking: or rather "default crouch assumed where appropriate" barra_library: oki, would we support some kind of sneak mode? barra_library: not in combat but for stealth purposes zenbitzWorking: whoa whoa 1 thing at a time Gaspard: barra_library: oki zenbitzWorking: so that's shooting back.. next is "actively avoiding getting shot" zenbitzWorking: ready? Gaspard: ready zenbitzWorking: if you are avoiding getting shot - you are going to get behind the nearest (neigboring tile) cover. zenbitzWorking: or hit the dirt (prone) 1:40 PM zenbitzWorking: crouching is not significantly better than just standing there like a dofus, and if it was, it'd be default behavior anyway. zenbitzWorking: so no "crouch" action. zenbitzWorking: last is "doing something else" Gaspard: I'd add to this Gaspard: previous one zenbitzWorking: waiting Gaspard: there's a heavy possibility in an urban setting for example and indoors Gaspard: that there's some medium-height detritus laying about, let it be wrecked car/desks Gaspard: you could crouch behind that for cover zenbitzWorking: yeah, but that action - from Player's stand point - is still "take cover" Gaspard: it would be a quicker action to stand from that zenbitzWorking: why make them decide to crouch?? Gaspard: than hit the dirt and then stand zenbitzWorking: well, but that's really a function of the cover itself zenbitzWorking: if crouching is sufficient, player would never hit dirt zenbitzWorking: if crouching is insufficent, player always hits dirt zenbitzWorking: no decision Gaspard: hit dirt would add to open field combat zenbitzWorking: (I realize this is a slight simplification of reality) Gaspard: crouch might not be enough when there's only lower type of detritus between you and the enemy, therefore hit the dirt is called for 1:45 PM Gaspard: depends on how much different kind of scenery might affect the view eleazar: the problem with laying prone is that a 1 tile character becomes a 2 tile character zenbitzWorking: but the decision is always the same for the player eleazar: assuming normal tile sizes zenbitzWorking: eleazar - don't distract us with graphics yet zenbitzWorking: not that it's not an issue Gaspard: true, el, but if the enemy is further away then that would not affect much Gaspard: as in beginning stages of ranged combat zenbitzWorking: it's much worse than that - prone is, of course, worse if the enemy is significantly (~3m) above you... zenbitzWorking: (dep. on angle of course) Gaspard: with close low cover crouch might also provide the character with the possibility of shooting back while lets say 75% covered 1:50 PM zenbitzWorking: Gaspard - but the choice is not whether to crouch or not. zenbitzWorking: that's the "implementation" zenbitzWorking: the players choice is: Given this terrain - how do I maximize my defense? Gaspard: true zenbitzWorking: Or how do I maximize my defense while retaining my offense zenbitzWorking: so Player GUI give options (for instance): zenbitzWorking: 1) Take cover (cower) zenbitzWorking: 2) Take cover (aim) zenbitzWorking: 3) fuck cover, I'm gonna shoot zenbitzWorking: better labels are needed obviously. Lamoot has quit the server saying: "Leaving" zenbitzWorking: some tactical nut might complain that they would rather click on each scenery within 1 tile to decide between 60,70,80% cover. 1:55 PM Gaspard: hm, this reasoning is new to me I'll have to get used to it barra_library: movie time barra_library: please ping me if tie should show up later barra_library is now called barra_movie zenbitzWorking: But in reality, you will always choose 80% if the offense is roughly the same. zenbitzWorking: so tactically there is no decision.