Zenbitz:IRC chatlog on crouching

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zenbitzWorking: this comes up once a  zenbitz week, the crouching thing
 GaspardWorking: this is how I see it (without reading too much detail above)
zenbitzWorking: first off - we are only talking about effects on missile combat.
zenbitzWorking: melee combat - it's just not relevent and in fact, I would not want to be in a deep crouch when some dude was swinging a sword at me
Gaspard: the 'only' is questionable in my humble opinion
Gaspard: but continue
zenbitzWorking: well, we'll come back to it.
zenbitzWorking: if I am engaged in a firefight (inc. crossbows, snowballs, whatever)
zenbitzWorking: I am either:
zenbitzWorking: moving to a point.
zenbitzWorking: trying to shoot back
zenbitzWorking: trying to avoid getting shot
zenbitzWorking: doing something else, but passivily avoiding getting shot if I can
zenbitzWorking: anything else?
vtchill: crouching behind an object to avoid combat?
zenbitzWorking: I guess standing there like a dummy and getting shot
zenbitzWorking: vtchill:  ah but you will still be doing one of the above in addition.
Gaspard: everything else would go under 'doing something else, but passively...'
zenbitzWorking: if you are just "cowering" that's "actively avoiding being shot"
zenbitzWorking: ok, so lets start with moving to a point.
zenbitzWorking: presumably, that point is "escaping" or "cover" or something better that being shot at in the open.
zenbitzWorking: I can either sprint
zenbitzWorking: walk
zenbitzWorking: crawl
zenbitzWorking: job
zenbitzWorking: jog (sorry)
zenbitzWorking: well include silly movie "rolls" as "fast crawing" here
zenbitzWorking: if I am sprinting (def: running full out) I cannot be "crouching"
zenbitzWorking: if I am crawing or rolling (by definition) I cannot be crouching
Gaspard: you could hobble quickly while crouching (stupid)
Gaspard: so to movement that would not add at all
zenbitzWorking: if I am walking or jogging (def: running slower than sprint )
zenbitzWorking: I WILL ALWAYS BE CROUCHING IF I CAN
zenbitzWorking: so there is no reason to toggle it.
zenbitzWorking: Why would you walk without crouching if you were getting shot at?
barra_library: you would be slower while crouching
zenbitzWorking: I think in my original "thoughts" I had "dodge-run" as an action.
zenbitzWorking: Well, there is a continuum of speeds between walking and sprinting sure
zenbitzWorking: but why add the complexity.  If you want to get there ASAP heedless of bullets, sprint.
zenbitzWorking: If you want to go slower, but have some dodgy defense, "crouch-run"
zenbitzWorking: "Walking" is only going to apply under certain circumstances
zenbitzWorking: - usually you are trying to do something else (chew gum) or on treacherous terrain.  The PLAYER loses nothing by "dodge-running" (as long as this max dodge-run speed is higher than walking)
zenbitzWorking: summary of part 1:  there is no need to have a "crouch" action while MOVING in combat
zenbitzWorking: ready for part 2?
Gaspard: i guess
Gaspard: yes
Gaspard: trying to shoot back ?
zenbitzWorking: part 2:  You are also trying to aim/shoot back
zenbitzWorking: 
zenbitzWorking: either you are shooting while moving, or you are shooting while standing still
zenbitzWorking: if you are shooting while standing still - you are going to either just stand there in the open (maybe you think the enemy is blind)
zenbitzWorking: or you are going to take as much cover as you can while aiming/shooting.
Gaspard: barra_library oops you are here by mistake
zenbitzWorking: "take cover" - where cover is a real object that blocks bullets, etc.
zenbitzWorking: should probably be a separate action.
zenbitzWorking: if there is no "true" cover - you probably want to present the lowest possible profile to guys shooting at you - such that your own attack is not effected.
zenbitzWorking: this is either: drop to ground or drop to 1 knee (simplistically)
zenbitzWorking: drop to ground is probably not a good "auto" action - because presumably it takes an action to get back up.  
zenbitzWorking: Drop to 1 knee--this is about as close to a "crouch" action I think is worthy, but I am not sure it's  even worth coding in.
zenbitzWorking: either it's like a "half action" to start moving again (unlike getting back to your feed from ground) or it's "free" and there is no point of specifiying it.
zenbitzWorking: I could go either way... if we keep it, that would leave us with 3 firing stances (without cover)
zenbitzWorking: 1) Prone
zenbitzWorking: 2) Half-prone (1 knee)
zenbitzWorking: 3) Set standing
barra_library: so that's the conclusion?
zenbitzWorking: as 1->3 your defense decreases, but your ability to move again increases
zenbitzWorking: on next action.
zenbitzWorking: Well, we could drop 2) I am not sure what it really adds
zenbitzWorking: to the game
zenbitzWorking: no - shooting while running - has all the same reason to have "no crouch" as just moving does
zenbitzWorking: or rather "default crouch assumed where appropriate"
zenbitzWorking: so that's shooting back.. next is "actively avoiding getting shot"
zenbitzWorking: ready?
Gaspard: ready
zenbitzWorking: if you are avoiding getting shot - you are going to get behind the nearest (neigboring tile) cover.
zenbitzWorking: or hit the dirt (prone)
zenbitzWorking: crouching is not significantly better than just standing there like a dofus, and if it was, it'd be default behavior anyway.
zenbitzWorking: so no "crouch" action.
zenbitzWorking: last is "doing something else" 
Gaspard: I'd add to this
Gaspard: previous one
zenbitzWorking: waiting
Gaspard: there's a heavy possibility in an urban setting for example and indoors
Gaspard: that there's some medium-height detritus laying about, let it be wrecked car/desks
Gaspard: you could crouch behind that for cover
zenbitzWorking: yeah, but that action - from Player's stand point - is still "take cover"
Gaspard: it would be a quicker action to stand from that
zenbitzWorking: why make them decide to crouch??
Gaspard: than hit the dirt and then stand
zenbitzWorking: well, but that's really a function of the cover itself
zenbitzWorking: if crouching is sufficient, player would never hit dirt
zenbitzWorking: if crouching is insufficent, player always hits dirt
zenbitzWorking: no decision
Gaspard: hit dirt would add to open field combat
zenbitzWorking: (I realize this is a slight simplification of reality)
Gaspard: crouch might not be enough when there's only lower type of detritus between you and the enemy, therefore hit the dirt is called for
Gaspard: depends on how much different kind of scenery might affect the view
eleazar: the problem with laying prone is that a 1 tile character becomes a 2 tile character
zenbitzWorking: but the decision is always the same for the player
eleazar: assuming normal tile sizes
zenbitzWorking: eleazar - don't distract us with graphics yet
zenbitzWorking: not that it's not an issue
Gaspard: true, el, but if the enemy is further away then that would not affect much
Gaspard: as in beginning stages of ranged combat
zenbitzWorking: it's much worse than that - prone is, of course, worse if the enemy is significantly (~3m) above you...
zenbitzWorking: (dep. on angle of course)
Gaspard: with close low cover crouch might also provide the character with the possibility of shooting back while lets say 75% covered
zenbitzWorking:  Gaspard - but the choice is not whether to crouch or not.
zenbitzWorking: that's the "implementation"
zenbitzWorking: the players choice is:  Given this terrain - how do I maximize my defense?
Gaspard: true
zenbitzWorking: Or how do I maximize my defense while retaining my offense
zenbitzWorking: so Player GUI give options (for instance):
zenbitzWorking: 1) Take cover (cower)
zenbitzWorking: 2) Take cover (aim)
zenbitzWorking: 3) fuck cover, I'm gonna shoot
zenbitzWorking: better labels are needed obviously.
zenbitzWorking: some tactical nut might complain that they would rather click on each scenery within 1 tile to decide between 60,70,80% cover.
Gaspard: hm, this reasoning is new to me  I'll have to get used to it
zenbitzWorking: But in reality, you will always choose 80% if the offense is roughly the same.
zenbitzWorking: so tactically there is no decision.
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